Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Vasa model.jpg

This deletion debate is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Image:Vasa_model.jpg

No FOP in Sweden for works indoors MichaelMaggs 21:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

 Delete per Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Model rescued Vasa ship.jpg. (This was taken in the same indoor venue.) —LX (talk, contribs) 11:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment Considering this is the work of employees of a government-run museum for the explicit purpose of being displayed at a government-run musuem, could we make a minimum of effort to find out if anyone actually has claims a copyright of this model?

Peter ^Isotalo 20:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Follow-up: I've spoken to Maria B Andersson, information director at the Vasa Museum, about this issue and explained to her about Wikipedia's copyright policies. She told me that the Swedish National Maritime Museums, the organization that runs the Vasa Museum, claims no copyright of the model. She explicitly pointed out that it is in the interest of the Vasa Museum that this picture be made available as widely as possible and that she is willing to certify that photos of the model can be published without any copyright restrictions. With that said, how do we go about certifying that photos of this Vasa model do not present a copyright infringement?

Peter ^Isotalo 18:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That's excellent news. What would be needed is her confirmation of that in writing. Could you ask her to be good enough to send permission by email from a museum email address to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org? An OTRS volunteer will note the permission and assuming it's OK will add a note to that effect against this image. It should then be OK to keep (and the previously-deleted image could be restored as well). If you want to let me know on my talk page when the email's been sent, I'll look out for it and will take it from there. A suitable wording would be:

From Maria B Andersson, information director at the Vasa Museum:

I am writing as authorised representive of Swedish National Maritime Museums in connection with photographs taken of the model of the Vasa which is held at the Vasa Museum. I confirm on behalf of Swedish National Maritime Museums, as the legal copyright owner of the Vasa Model, that Swedish National Maritime Museums waives its copyright and allows free use of any photograph taken of the model, as if the model were in the public domain. This email relates to Image:Vasa_model.jpg and any other photographs taken of the model.

Please note that it's not enough for her to give permission which limits use eg to Wikimedia Commons or to Wikipedia only.

Let me know if you need anything else. --MichaelMaggs 19:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I've been on vacation for a while, and the information director has now gone on her summer vacation. I have no doubt that the museum will grant permission to take freely licensed pictures of the models. However, I've been thinking more about this deletion request, and I'm beginning to seriously doubt that it benefits anyone. If models on display in Nordic museums are to be considered protected by copyright we'll most likely have to delete several hundreds, maybe thousands of of pictures. I can't for the life of me believe that either museums, model builders or curators have the slightest interest in not exhibiting freely licensed photos of their exhibitions. Interpreting models of this kind as works of art is really pushing legal technicalities way too far.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, that would require a change in Commons policy to ignore Swedish copyright laws, which isn't going to happen. Models and toys are legally artworks which attract copyright: see Commons:Image casebook#Toys. And, unfortunately many museum curators do try to restrict the use of photographs of their exhibits (perhaps so they can control licensing of images and sell more postcards). I think this deletion request will need to be closed as delete for now, leaving the option open to restore the image once permission arrives. Sorry. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Museums do indeed occasionally attempt to control photography on their own premises, which is a matter of controlling the actions of visitors, but I've never heard of a museum that actually attempts to take control of copyright of photos of exhibitions of this kind. We're talking about de facto public exhbitions created for the sole purpose of being displayed to as many people as possible. There is not a trace of a copyright claim of models like this, and yet we're trying to delete it because of a technicality that is nobody's interest.

Peter ^Isotalo 07:06, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm also rather puzzled why a ship model displayed in a museum right next to the original isn't considered a derivative of the original. It's indended to be as close to the original ship as possible, and even the fact that its minituarized doesn't really seem relevant. If minituarization is considered enough to render the model a copyrighatble work of art then photos of tourist souvenirs miniatures of the Venus de Milo (the example given at Commons:Derivative works) should be considered copyright violations.

Peter ^Isotalo 12:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

OTRS note: In Template:OTRS ticket the Swedish National Maritime Museum, which owns the model pictured in this photograph, has released into the public domain any copyright which it may have held in this photograph as a result of that ownership. As far as I can see, that resolves all the potential issues with this photograph, and this deletion request should be closed. - Mark (talk) 12:40, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

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Kept. as per Mark. Yann (talk) 13:17, 31 August 2008 (UTC)